Trump Targets Comey — and the Shutdown Showdown (with Malcolm Nance)

You know, the problem is, and and I talked to Corey about this last week, I have, you know, people say, "Oh my god, if if if you wondered what was happening in Nazi Germany in 1934 or, you know, 34 to 36 than you're living it now." And I don't think that's entirely true. I think that, you know, it was far harsher by 1934, right? Hitler, uh, when he became chancellor, he had already split the country. He had already had, uh, laws, you know, to put people back in a uniform. You could kill Jews with impunity. You could steal as you wanted. The entire system was rigged against you. Could we go there? Sure. I I as a Philadelphiaian uh and a a a son of the true Constitution and the belief in the American experiment, I think we're in Boston 1774.

>> Oh. >> And I think the intolerable acts are just starting to arrive by mail. And that really kicked off the Civil War. Wasn't the Boston Massacre. >> It was the right you have to house and quarter British soldiers in your house. >> That's right. >> They could walk. They could harass you and and come into your home and pull you up and send you to jail without warrant. Your freedom of speech was now limited. Your right to assembly was was eliminated to a certain extent, which is why Liberty trees popped up. your right to have your own representative government was now under the governor who was who was sent by by London and your assembly dissolved and then your ammunition and militias would fall under that and oh by the way take this [ __ ] tea that we have brought over from India that we are now tering >> you know what I'm excited about though Corey we have a very special guest on

the pod today >> I'm so excited that um in the second half of the podcast. Malcolm Nance is going to join us. And of course, we've been talking about the threat to democracy. He's going to bring out uh the way that disinformation, both from abroad and uh internal to the United States, has really changed the terrain of democracy, undermining its fundamental values. >> Yeah. Don't miss this. It's really great. I'm so thrilled we got him. [Music] Welcome to another edition of the Oath and the Office podcast. I'm John Fuglesen, proud to welcome the star of our show, the professor from the political science department at Brown, the writer you have read in the New York Times, CNN, MSNBC, and Time magazine.

The author of The Oath in the Office, A Guide to the Constitution for Future Presidents, as well as the presidents of the people. Uh people of Earth, let me welcome the star of our show, Professor Cory Brett Schneider. Hello, sir. >> Uh thanks, John. What a pleasure to speak with you every week. Uh you know, it would have been great if this uh attempted self coup, this attempt to destroy our democracy was was over. But I don't I don't think so. >> Oh, if it was over, what would we do? We'd have to talk about Star Wars and sports every week, Cory. We we'd we'd be talking about how well we all get along and how boring. I mean, look at just the last week, professor. just just since the last time we were together. Last week, we had that insane speech at the UN with the escalator nonsense. The bizarre Tylenol press conference where we were told by a heavy breathing RFK that pregnant ladies shouldn't take Tylenol because the science doesn't say so. This epic loss at ABC. Kimmel back on the air. Monday Night Football staring down Sinclair. Trump saying that NATO should shoot down Russian jets now.

Trump saying that he'll help the West Bank against Israeli incursions. Now, he canled the meeting with the Democrats to prevent the shutdown, but now he doesn't want to stop a shutdown. The the the the ICE shooting, remember the the shooting at the ICE facility and they lied that the victims were agents. It's already the the vice president lied that the shooting victims were agents and not kidnapped detainees already been forgotten about defending Tom Hman for taking 50 grand in bribes in a paper bag. and they wrapped it by indicting James Comey in a case that will never go to trial. I mean, Corey, that's just last week. Um, and I want to begin by talking to you about this indictment of the former head of the FBI. The it it looks flimsy. It looks unserious. It looks legally very hollow, but the strategy seems really clear here. This is what Trump is trying to do with Tish James and and anyone else he doesn't like. um bankrupt opponents with endless legal costs and keep his enemies tied up in court and try to uh make them drain their funds. Um you've read the

indictment against James Comey. Does it actually allege any crimes, professor, or is it more theater? Uh it's a lot of theater and um it does allege crimes um that have to do with um u basically lying before Congress to Ted Cruz uh in particular about um the uh the question of whether or not Comey uh leaked information to the press and you know he was asked about this and claimed that he did not. But what the evidence is that he actually did this illegal uh leak the way they're they're arguing and that he lied about it in particular which I take it is the basis of the of the charges li uh about it. There just are very few facts. Here's the bottom line. The um US attorney uh that was appointed by Trump looked into this. There was a serious investigation and a conclusion was made that there was not enough evidence to move forward. And you know, I have to believe that these US attorneys, if they could indict uh and they had a basis for

thinking there really was a crime here, would do so because they want to curry favor while still doing their job. But they don't want to bring baseless charges that have no basis in fact. And and so that's why there was a refusal to do so. And then Trump had to basically reach outside the criminal law to an insurance lawyer and and to get a crony to um to do this indictment. And you know that's where we are unfortunately. >> What does this say about our legal system Cory that uh the wealthy among us can abuse it and Donald Trump can set money on fire. He has made billions this year through his crypto scam because our Congress doesn't believe in enforcing the imalments clause anymore. And then he can take those billions and burn it.

I mean, what does it say about equal protection under the law when the courts themselves can be weaponized with cash against people who don't have as much? >> Well, as you know, I've been arguing that this is an attempt at a coup to destroy our system of government, partly destroy uh the checks of the Congress and the judiciary, but it also is an attempt and I think in some ways the definition of autocracy can be summed up as whether or not uh the the the leader, the president tries to shut down the opposition. And the only reason why Comey is going after is it has nothing to do with this supposed leak and the the evidence or lack thereof. It has to deal with the fact that he was disloyal to Trump during the Muller investigation going back to his first term that this was somebody he views as again an a former um somebody was supposed to be loyal and turned out to be an enemy. And so um that's the only reason this is happening. And what's so serious about it is it is a use of the system to uh go after an opponent. Now, some reporters

that I've talked to have emphasized, well, but in the end, does it really matter because won't he just be found not guilty? But as you so importantly point out, that's not the point. The point is that he's trying to use the entire legal system as a cudgel to go after his opponents and to either threaten them financially, to instill fear. Um, the way a lot of criminal trials work is this isn't going to happen here, but that that there's so much danger of long-term imprisonment that a deal might be made even if somebody's not guilty. Um, and you know, this is this is an attempt also to instill fear in other opponents and also by the way in current loyalists to let them know this is what happens to you.

Uh, that is nothing less than uh an attempt at autocracy. >> I agree. And by loyal, of course, we mean uh obedient because loyalty is a thing that goes two ways. Trump doesn't believe in that. He believes in blind, unmanly obedience. I want to say that every time. Corey, I I asked you about this on SiriusXM. There's this expression we heard that was hurled at the Joe Biden Justice Department an awful lot called uh lawfare. This notion of using the machinery of the state to harass your political opponents. Now, this was a lie uh about Joe Biden doing this. Donald Trump's indictments all came because grand juries of citizens saw evidence and they chose to indict uh his one conviction on 34 felony counts came because a jury saw the evidence and voted to convict him.

So um I don't you know I I know that the law fear was just a smear and trying to discredit the machinations of law enforcement because they prefer a criminal. Uh they're not mad at Trump's crimes. They're mad at people for going after him for his crimes. How dangerous is it for democracy when a president can just really do what they accuse Biden of doing? Aim the DOJ at his enemies like this. I mean, why do people, including conservatives, need to understand this is real dangerous third world nonsense.

>> You know, I worry that even the term lawfare lawfare is is too generous because, you know, that assumes that you're using the law as a cudel and that's really not what's going on. And he's using the threat of um of of indictment, the threat of imprisonment based on nothing, based on no facts, not abuse of the law, but based on raw power. And you know, he couldn't care less. The way he he uses the law in his private lawsuits is to just, you know, threaten people to get what he wants. And that's what he's doing here. The law is just kind of a tool. It has no principles, no inner life. So, I really think that, you know, if if you think about the idea, what we call it in Putin's Russia lawfare when he uses uh his system to to lock up opponents, I I I hesitate to call it that because it's not even a legal system. And while we still have aspects of our legal system in place, what's going on here is is just raw power. Um or, you know, uh in in in autocracies, the idea that there's a rule of law is almost a it is a

misnomer. It's it's it's just a you know a kind of fig leaf for for raw power and and you know that's where we've headed by the way you know are we moving towards autocracy are we in it gets very hard to know once the prosecutions begin and so uh it is very possible and I think I said this last week that future historians will look back at this moment and say wow this is when the dictatorship began. Well, I I completely agree and what we're witnessing is the the process is the punishment in terms of these lawsuits. Trump knows they'll go nowhere. He doesn't care. He has found a way to weaponize the DOJ using cash. Um, in the midst of all of this, the administration insists that these National Guard deployments to Portland and Memphis and potentially other cities are to protect federal buildings. Um, obviously this is less about protection and more about intimidation.

Uh, from a constitutional perspective, professor, what what do you see really happening here? >> Well, this is where it gets really worrying because he's got to say that the deployments for instance to Portland um are about protecting the buildings because there is a law and we've talked about this previously, but I'll remind listeners or those who are new to the podcast, welcome. uh you need to know this the the name of this law the from the 19th century the posi commatatus act and what it does is it essentially says you can't use the military for civilian policing and it creates a limit on the use of the military within states that that that that um you know even even if they're having um problems with issues like crime you can't just deploy the military >> right >> um so there are exceptions to that one is that you can use the national guard and the military to protect federal buildings. So that's what they're claiming here. And the more worrying exception is called the insurrection act and that's what Eisenhower used for instance when there was a defiance of a

court order um in Little Rock. He he he over the governor's objection sent the nationalized the the National Guard and and turned it into part of the US military and and used it to integrate the schools. Now uh that's using an exception the Insurrection Act to defend civil rights. this president is going to use it to shut down civil rights. And I I did work uh during the Biden administration to try to convince members of Congress to to rewrite the insurrection act. That didn't go anywhere. And what I was saying is you need to use it to clarify that yes, it can be used to defend civil liberties.

It can't be used to shut them down. And yet that's exactly what might happen here. What will the Supreme Court say if it comes down to it? I think they might side with Trump. by the way, using the military in this first step is part of his strategy to try to incite >> um violence to try to get get chaos on the ground and then he >> they want somebody they want some guy some hothead to throw a rock at a national guardsman. >> Once they have violence, then they know how to handle you. You're you're exactly right. But professor, and I'm sorry to jump on this, but I mean I've learned so much about the Posi Kamatatus Act from you, uh which I thought was something from the Kinsey report. I didn't know it wasn't a weird position. Um, but now I understand it is supposed to limit the use of military and domestic law enforcement, but how do you compare this to historical episodes where presidents invoked federal power against states or citizens like Eisenhower and Little Rock or or Nixon in the 70s? Well, you know, I think there was this proud tradition of there and you know, there is a a I

would say unfortunate and troubling history of the posi commitatus act because it was passed in order to to limit President Grant's use of the military to enforce civil rights. So in the in the 20th century, the way around that limit was by presidents like Eisenhower seeking integration, seeking to enforce civil rights orders by federal courts was the Insurrection Act. And so for a long time in our head when we would have taught this in school for instance on statutory interpretation or in uh classes about presidential power it would have been a good law. You know that you're using this for a good end.

>> And now we've got to come to terms with the horrific fact that despite a proud history of some of our presidents including Eisenhower at that moment I think absolutely needed to do what he did. We've got to recognize that these same forces of good, the federal government, can be used for um what to destroy the very foundation of of democracy. And that's what's going to happen in Portland. He's going to look for protesters that he can uh have an excuse to go after. And why is he going after them? It's because he doesn't like their their message. By the way, this the meeting that I'm sure our listeners have by now read about um where Hegsath uh I think who was my TA at PR uh uh not TA that I was his TA at Princeton thankfully he was not my TA I should have done a better job >> uh and President Trump gathered all the military officials um bringing them in from around the world to let them know and Trump used this language that he was going to basically uh use them, train

them on enemies within. And that language of the enemy within, which we talked about again last week, the language of fascism, he's now used that to try to rally the troops literally. Uh what a scary thought that is as he begins these deployments possibly to Portland and and also to Memphis. >> He's literally calling American cities training grounds for American troops going to war. How do you say that our cities are a training ground for soldiers going to war without heavily messaging >> that they're going to have to shoot American citizens? I mean I mean and and in the midst of this we have the government shutdown that this appears to be imminent. And I want to ask you about this professor because on the surface shutdowns are familiar, right? We've seen this before. Ted Cruz has done like nine of them. This one, I think, is very different in terms of constitutional danger, especially because this president seems very happy either way.

He's either going to get what he wants and throw 12 to 20 million low-income and disabled Americans off healthcare or they're going to shut the government down to protect American citizens and then he can get even more power. How how do you explain the the risk here and and how this shutdown is really connected to Project 2025's broader vision? >> Well, I mean to transition from the last topic, I think if if we're right, and we're hearing this now thankfully from some at least members of Congress, uh one person, by the way, the great defender of democracy that we'll hear from in a few weeks, um is um uh uh none other than Ted um Ted Louu. Uh and so you know there are those out there who are getting the danger but if the danger really is a threat to democracy uh then I think what we've got to recognize is that we need to fight back and you know it might be too late if I'm right that this might be called the dictatorship but there's at least one tool in the

arsenal as he shuts down political opponents. Let's go go through it. as he threatens to use the military uh as a training ground in America's cities to go after his domestic enemies. Uh and the shutdown might be that moment where we can um say no, we're not going to fund this government that you're trying to commander for the for authoritarian purposes. So So you know, we could go back and this is not a normal shutdown. It is a shutdown that's um possibly going to be a sign of the resistance to Trump's wannabe um authoritarian dictatorship.

>> And you know what one last thing about this which is that if the federal government is being commoder the military the um use of ICE to to shut down our civil liberties I I don't think we have a lot of choice but that to take a serious stand and and the shutdown might be a way to do that. >> Well yes sir because this time it's not the usual furlow and back pay shutdown. I mean, what's terrifying and why it looks like lose-lose for Democrats is Trump and the Minions are talking about firing federal workers outright if the government closes. No furlow firing. >> Yeah.

>> Like, imagine your boss saying, "Look, the company can't make payroll this week, so we've decided >> to just eliminate payroll forever. Get out." I mean, they want a shutdown as an excuse to gut the government because I guess, Professor and Trump's mind, the problem's not that planes crash without FAA inspectors or that grandma's social security checks are going to stop arriving or that he could die from Salmonella poisoning. Um, I think his problem is the government isn't one giant ICE detention center with a defense budget staple to him. And in past generations, you've taught us how the founders thought, well, there's impeachment. You don't want assassination for a corrupt despot. So, we have impeachment. And yet, when there's a party of very loyal enablers, that's not an option either.

>> It really isn't. I mean, the idea that we're going to get a majority of the House or twothirds of the Senate, it's it's almost a joke. And yet, that is what the the framers imagined and they thought about uh in particular, there was a debate about whether or not a president would use the military domestically. The antifederalists warned of that and the um defenders of the constitution said no don't worry we can trust a president that won't happen. Well it turns out the antifederalist worry was right. So now what do we what are our mechanisms these promised checks and balances of Congress's impeachment power the main one they thought we'd use in exactly this situation is nowhere to be found. So I think we're left with the shutdown. But I also don't want to be naive and this goes to your point that um you know the the Trump and Russell vote and others in his administration have a plan which is they they don't want to get rid of the federal government. They want complete control over it. and those civil servants that have protection against this president who can resist them because they're charged by Congress with carrying out

laws um like the Environmental Protection um uh uh agency and its clean water act that it's supposed to enforce and the Clean Air Act. He doesn't like those laws. So, this is a chance to fire them and he can claim, "Oh, I'm I'm not, you know, there's financial desperation. That's why I'm doing it." And he thinks it'll be upheld by court. So it's simultaneously a gutting of the government that we're going to face and an attempt at autocracy. But you know what what what are our choices? I think that we're left with so few that that that risk is just something that >> Democrats are left with so through so few Democrats have a choice of either shutting down the government, no one gets their checks, military stops being paid, and Democrats are bad guys in the history books over it and we will be smeared for shutting down the government by right-wing media or they go along with what Trump wants and 12 to 20 million low-income and disabled Americans are sentenced to death and will show up at emergency rooms.

when they need healthare so local taxpayers can foot the bill. I mean, ironically, the Republicans are fighting for a form of socialism here. And the Democrats appear to be walking around in clown shoes, unable to accurately call it out. >> And, you know, I think we've got to talk too about funding the military, what that means. It it doesn't mean funding uh heroic action abroad. It means uh funding the shutdown of the president's personal enemies. That's what he's told us when he assembled the military. So, anything we can do, what does it mean to fund ICE? It means to um you know continue this assault on on people's rights. Now, some of that funding, including the ICE funding, is guaranteed through other measures. So, so you know, in some ways it's too late, but at least it's something to take a stand. And I do think that in the big picture, you know, we've got to ask the question, assuming that we are on our way to autocracy or maybe even here.

>> I think we're there. Ma mask thugs hunting down brown people at church picnics. I think we're there. >> I'm comfortable with it. So, what did we do to what did we do to call it out and and a shutdown would be at least um you know a battle uh a front in this war against autocracy. >> Brilliant. We have to take a our first break. When we come back, more. This is the oath in the office with Professor Cory Brett Schneider. Cory, I am so excited for this next guest. I have been blessed to have this man join me on my show. This man has joined us on stage before. I have witnessed crowds of thousands of frothing political comedy fans go mad for Malcolm Nance. He was a career counterterrorism and intelligence officer for our government special operations, homeland security, and intelligence agencies. He has over 33 years of experience in combating radical extremism. And he's also got a few more years of combating radical extremism on CNN, ABC, Fox News, MSNBC, Al Jazer.

He's the author of a couple of terrific books, including a terrifying book I just can't recommend enough. They Want to Kill Americans: The Militias, Terrorists, and Deranged Ideology of the Trump Insurgency. A book that is tragically more timely now than it was in his first term. Uh what a pleasure to welcome Malcolm Dance to the Oath in the Office. Hello, sir. Hey, glad to be here. >> And Malcolm, let me just add to that. There's so much in the introduction. Many of our listeners and those watching on YouTube will know know you and know your work, but I'll add to of course that you were a for former US naval intelligence specialists and uh an advisor to the um to uh US government's special operations and homeland security and the intelligence agencies. Of those books, five were bestsellers is my understanding. New York Times bestsellers. So John has has joined you there. Um uh happy to report the last couple weeks and you know there's so much to talk about. I also think that that your podcast um which John and I

were both privileged to be on Black Man Spy is a kind of kindred spirit to to ours. We're we're all talking about this threat to democracy. We're being very honest uh about it um and yet you know hopeful where we can find it. And um so one thing I just wanted to start with I thought our conversation was so interesting about the the threat to democracy and one thing that you really bring to it that that I'd love our listeners to hear your thoughts on uh is the danger and the way that this threat um and in many ways unique threat uh comes from abroad that it comes from misinformation campaigns um from uh Russia in particular Putin's Russia that its sophistication in in in spreading misinformation really has undermined our democracy. Uh we've been talking about whether or not we're approaching autocracy or whether we're in it. This uh meeting with the generals really has me worried. The deployment to the cities, but the other part of it is this uh misinformation,

disinformation, intentional campaign to mess with the um really the underlying uh foundation of our democracy, which is communication and and truth. So So I'm just hoping you could we could start there. Yeah, you know, in 2016, I wrote my first book on this. I shifted from counterterrorism and intelligence themes uh to having to write about Russian disinformation, misinformation and and and propaganda infecting the American political scene.

And that was sort of my claim to fame because, you know, I was at MSNBC. I was explainer chief about military things. And over time, uh, people just kept asking me about the the hacking of the Democratic National Committee. >> Yeah. >> And the first moment I heard that that the DNC had been hacked and that it had originated uh from a foreign entity using a malware suite called Fancy Bear and Cozy Bear. There could only be one answer to that. It's Russia and they're doing Watergate because it's the only reason anybody would ever hack the DNC is to replicate Watergate. And then what you have to do is you have to extract from there. The problem that we have in the United States, our news media is so ridiculously slow. They give everyone benefit of the doubt. They cut breaks and everything. And I didn't. And in the run-up to the 2016 election, um I'm I'm most famous for the day that I went on Joy Reed's uh not her show, but she was

doing an afternoon hosting uh on the second day, no, the first day of the Democratic National Committee, and she said, "Well, you you said you have something you want to tell us." And I was like, "Yeah, the United States is under attack by an information warfare operation from a foreign intelligence agency with the intention to get Donald Trump elected president." And it was like record scratch and like whoa wait what? All of the signs had been there for the better part of a year but the media wouldn't touch it right unless you know somebody gives them a video recording of Putin saying hack the democratic election. Everything was there and then you know I wrote plot to hack America in five weeks. I did a full brain dump of how these operations are conducted. Now, the reason that I'm mentioning all of this, how the Russian, you know, Internet Research Agency, the Kremlin, the S FSB, uh, the SVR, which is the Russian clandestine service, the GRU, Russia's

military intelligence agency, they were all going after the United States, but they were really going after one side of the United States, the Democratic Party, because they had a vested interest in making sure the other side behaved. Now, at the same time, we learned that Steve Bannon had set up his own uh information warfare organization based on what the Russians were doing. So the Russians would throw a fast ball and Steve Bannon would catch that fastball, some crazy bit of disinformation like the Podesta Files or something and then would pass it would be cleaned through Wikileaks as a credible source and then the R the MAGA disinformation system would amplify it far broader than the Russians ever could. Uh by 2020 that had completely reversed. The Russians didn't have to do anything, right? MAGA started making up their own stories. That's right.

>> And to the point where even today, the Russians are playing catchup on the crazy stories that MAGA comes up with every day. So, it's sort of like, you know, uh, sort of it's the Anakin Skywalker thing, right? He was cute in episode one. He was racing cars and showed talent and could go on to be a Jedi. and his next thing you know he's massacring children and going to the dark side. That is information warfare with the uh with the Russians. So when we say we have foreign actors out there who are doing things, not anymore.

Nowhere near the level that Donald Trump and the MAGA multi-billion dollar machine. They bought the largest social media network other than Facebook by buying Twitter. Right. Then they intimidated Facebook, you know, after the election to where the top four richest men who own media machines, LA Times, Washington Post, you know, Twi, Twitter Now X and Facebook, Instagram are all in the pocket of Trump and they do the the propaganda now. And poor, you know, there's guys in Russia just sitting around drinking, doing their best, but they don't need to.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Well, >> so it's irrelevant at this point the the Russian misinformation because it's become part of American culture and American power and even the you said MAGA, but I take it the the the in some ways the Republic the new Republican party. >> Would you go that far? >> Yeah. Well, MAGA is the Republican party. There's there is no Republican party, >> right? There's the MAGA party. Uh but to be quite honest uh you're you're right that the Russians now have shifted their disinformation and to tell you the truth I find it fascinating they you know cuz they were using old KGB methodologies which was create a false narrative inject it into a news media let it amplify and then amplify the amplification the internet world with Steve Bannon the you know and uh you know Cambridge Analytica had multiplied that by an order of magnitude to where the Russians would put it out

into the broader internet, Cambridge Analytica would pick it up and would microtarget 70 to 80 million individuals on the basis of their likes and dislikes in this world. Even the Russians weren't doing that. So fast forward to where we are today, Russia has actually fallen back on some more traditional methodologies to where they have gotten Russia today. If you go to a foreign um hotel room, it's right up next to BBC, you know, Ry Ry Uno from Italy, you know, France 24 or TV Sununk >> and Russia Today and you know, and then Russia did a a more clever thing. They started hiring Americans who were, you know, essentially corrupt and corroded, right? uh to speak not just for Russia today, but to get Americans to see

Russia as an ally and then they would be more credible. My favorite example is the guy who I fight with. I don't fight with him. He attacks me all the time. Scott Ritter, >> former UN weapons inspector, convicted pedophile, >> went to prison for three years, is a regular on Russia Today >> and a wellfunded regular on Russia Today. A wellunded regular. Absolutely. Malcolm, one of the things that we we are going to want to talk to you about is that you're someone who put his money where his mouth is and you famously strapped on a rifle and went over to defend our Ukrainian allies. Now, in 1994, America, the UK, and Russia signed the Budapest Memorandum, uh, where Ukraine gave all of their nukes to Russia in exchange for Russia and the UK and the US promising to always respect their borders. So, um, when Russia invaded Ukraine, there was no objective doubt that they were breaking a treaty, that it was illegal, and that it was

Putin doing it. Donald Trump has spent a lot of time telling people that Joe Biden is responsible for the invasion. And of course uh uh uh Ukraine is responsible just like Ike blamed Tina all those times for getting in the way of a fist. Here's my question though. I mean seriously, >> why do you think this president cannot criticize Vladimir Putin? Is not allowed to speak the truth about Vladimir Putin while his own aids do. And what did you make of him last week coming out and saying it's okay for NATO planes to shoot down Russian aircraft? Was that just him finding another way to stall because he has no intention of doing anything to slow down Putin's bloody blitzkrieg?

>> I think all this sudden pro- Ukraine talk recently, pro- NATO, it's just all fluff. Donald Trump. You know, I I I I'm on a podcast every week with Michael Cohen and Lev Parnes, two guys who worked for him directly, and they say it's just a negotiating tactic. You know, Donald Trump is madly in love with Vladimir Putin. I wrote three books in a row, um, which investigated that from an intelligence perspective. And when I wrote uh plot to destroy democracy, it was so clear whatever Putin had on him when Putin came in, you know, when when Trump came to Russia for Miss Universe in I believe it was in 2012, um he Vladimir Putin is an exKGB human intelligence officer. He would have said, "Get me everything there is about Donald Trump in our archives, right?" because he would want to study his target. Man has billions of dollars. He wants to build a Trump Tower there.

>> And they would have come in with wheelbarrows full of information. And I'm not joking. The first surveillance that started on Donald Trump by the KGB occurred in 1977 when he married Ivana and she was a citizen of the Czech Republic. check and you know for 10 years every word he said to the family everything she said to the family every phone call that was made when the kids uh Ivanka and and and Donald Jr. and Eric came there as children. They were under the surveillance of the KGB uh and Czech Intelligence, the STB. And all of this is documented. The Russians document everything. So there was 10 years of that before Donald Trump ever came and visited Russia in 1987.

And then Trump became, you know, became enamored. He always wanted to be a nuclear weapons negotiator. That's why you saw that crazy talk about, you know, nukes. The the the one of the two N-words, right, by the way, is what he said at at Holy Cowboy today. >> Always classy. Yeah. >> And um so the Russians had an enormous database on him when he came to Miss Universe and you know, decades of surveillance. Now, how do we know that surveillance actually occurred? I always get manga heads come out and go, "That's a lie." Czech television has all the physical files, right? And they did a documentary on it and they did a whole expose with Luke Harding, who wrote the book Collusion, who goes, "I've got here's the phone calls." And who was the reporting entity, by the way, to the KGB for the checks?

>> Ivana's father. >> Okay? He was the official intelligence collector. They tasked his ass to go do that. So with all this data and Trump's, you know, love of Russia, and I got a theory about that that's the same that we had for al-Qaeda. Al-Qaeda was fascinated with Russians. Why? Last bastion of uh of seemingly skinny, untouched uh Caucasian women. Okay.

>> And that's why Trump loved women from East Europe. They were submissive. They, you know, you know, love style and fashion. He went to Slovenia, I mean Slovenia for a model. His second wife, you know, convinced him obviously that he was doing everything wrong. To tell you the truth, his character on South Park is far more accurate in the way he views the world. >> Yeah. you know, and and it's it's he doesn't govern by the law. He doesn't govern by structures and norms. He governs by do I look like I give a [ __ ] >> That's right. And can I just say to your South Park point, his character on South Park is literally a copy of South Park's 26-year-old version of Saddam Hussein.

Satan says to him, "You're literally the same guy." And it completely works. >> Satan's ex-boyfriend We got to hit a quick break, but Malcolm, if you can stick around when we come back, I know the professor and I would love to talk to you about how groups like QAnon are helped by foreign influence and ask you a whole bunch of questions about your time in Ukraine. We'll be back in just a moment. This is the Oath in the Office. Welcome back to the Oath in the Office podcast. Professor Cory Brett Schneider and I are joined by our good friend and one of my favorite people to talk to, um, author and rockstar Malcolm Nance. Uh, professor, I know that you had a great interview on Malcolm's show, Black Man Spy, last week. I just want to praise you, Malcolm. I got so much feedback um on my book from your audience. It's just I I love what you've done and I I love how you are paying back this country and giving even greater service as a broadcaster and as a voice of decency and resistance.

>> You know, the problem is and and I talked to Corey about this last week. I have, you know, people say, "Oh my god, if if if you wondered what was happening in Nazi Germany in 1934 or, you know, 34 to 36 than you're living it now." And I don't think that's entirely true. I think that, you know, it was far harsher by 1934, right? Hitler, uh, when he became chancellor, he had already split the country. He had already had, uh, laws, you know, to put people back in a uniform. You could kill Jews with impunity. You could steal as you wanted. The entire system was rigged against you. Could we go there? Sure. I I as a Philadelphiaian uh and a a a son of the true constitution and the belief in the American experiment, I think we are in Boston 1774.

>> Oh, >> and I think the intolerable acts are just starting to arrive by mail. And that really kicked off the Civil War. Wasn't the Boston Massacre. Mhm. >> It was the right you have to house and quarter British soldiers in your house. >> That's right. >> They could war they could harass you and and come into your home and pull you up and send you to jail without warrant. Your freedom of speech was now limited. Your right to assembly was was eliminated to a certain extent, which is why liberty trees popped up. your right to have your own representative government was now under the governor who was who was sent by by London and your assembly dissolved and then your ammunition and militias would fall under that. And oh by the way take this [ __ ] tea that we have brought over from India that we are now tariffing >> literally I cannot say people say oh

this guy's more like Hitler. No, he's George III on stero not on steroids. He's stupid George III or as I call him. >> No, no, he can still he can still have the same psychosis issues, Malcolm. He can still have the same profound mental impairments to go crazy for a year. >> Let me ask you I call him King Donald the last by the way. >> Nice. I mean comover Caligula myself, but all all these names work very fine. Cory, >> what I was going to say what one kind of just tying the themes together, I mean, one thing that you said earlier which rings true to me is that we can't in this information dis uh disinformation universe um misinformation universe maybe we should call it in which the president is actually the leader of the disinformation campaign. We can't pretend that everything is normal. So, um, you know, the idea that you're going to engage in deliberation with somebody who's really just using words as warfare or as information, and that is how he uses them, misinformation. It's not that he's trying to communicate with you.

He's trying to manipulate you. And so, when delegate a delegation of the Democratic party goes in and talks to somebody who's playing that game and tries to, you know, in good faith negotiate as if it's a normal president, that can't be the right way forward. So, I I love that idea. Yeah, I mean I do want to, you know, just ask again like what so what is it that we need to do? One thing I guess is just analyzing it for what it is and being honest. This isn't communication. And then I'll invite you to I mean what what does the military do because they are in such a weird information universe where the assumption is that they're being given lawful orders and that's why there's a commander-in-chief. Of course, we're in a different world if if they're being lied to if the orders are illegal orders and we uh that well could happen. So, so you know what is the right way to respond? I mean, I I'll invite you to the military, but also to talk generally to all of us of and to members of Congress. No communication, our own universe of information that tries to clarify um what what do we do?

>> Well, first the military has their own world and it works on what we call the read boards, right? That's used to be paper, big stacks of all the information that you had. um they neutralize the politics out of it because they are responsive to a civilian leadership in the United States. They they work for Pete Hegath, right? What they really feel uh can't be reflected. They have paper orders. All of this stuff is there, right? And if they start bringing that into the into the room, the whole we're going to be warriors for war warriors for warrior, war for warriors, whatever heck book was called, right?

which is some junior major reservist guardsman is going to tell a fourstar general who's pushing 30 years, you know, how to be a war fighter. You know, these guys who have fought six, seven wars, uh they're just going to ignore it and they're going to try to maintain the status quo. But with regards to disinformation warfare and information warfare, we have entire commands around arrayed around that. But they are oriented to warfare outside the United States. Same with our psychological operations, you know, military influence operations people, MEO. Um, but regards to us as American civilians, we are the war fighters of disinformation within the continental United States. And right now until you see some horrible catalyst of a guardsman or somebody shooting something, they are out of they are a non-factor. It's the Gestapa that the

Heinstats pull it >> that you really need to worry about, which is ICE. They are taking people with high school diplomas, >> right? Anyone with a high school diploma can become an ICE agent. Um and their job is to secretly attack individuals who have constitutional rights. And since the Supreme Court uh has decided they are all in on Donald Trump, Donald Trump, and we had talked about this with when I interviewed Dalia Lithwick, they're 100% on it. Now they are six to3. They have obviously secretly discussed this and they're just like whatever he does this will change America to the way we want to where our rulings will benefit those who deserve it. So this is now since you know the Dread Scott decision as far as I'm concerned as a black man. Um this is the single most Supreme Court since you know the the the mid 1800s.

um because they decided the constitution no longer applies to white men who are rich who want what they want >> and now everyone else will be ruled over. >> Correct? >> So how do we combat this? How do we combat the disinformation sphere, misinformation sphere? First off, you have to recognize that there is a meta narrative that they sell which is strictly based on the mind of a pathological liar.

>> That's right. >> Donald Trump is the single most documented liar in American history. Correct. And they stopped at 33,000 six years ago or 5 years ago. >> Five years. So if we were to actually have added up ever since then, he'd probably be in the 75,000 documented lie range. But even the media gave up. It's almost like an Anne Rand novel. It's literally the the what she wrote in Fountain Head when she said that there were two worlds. The the intellectuals who were doing great things and then the guys who were running government to get theirs.

>> Well, and can you believe that? I actually quoted that. This is where we are. The government is run for it's run by a racist misogynist dictatorial authoritarian whose motto to anyone who wants to get theirs is jump on my bandwagon. And by by didn't the fact that he is a a a white man who can get away with lives, who can get away now with murder because he destroyed four boats extrajudicially with no evidence whatsoever other than that you see a boat in the water. So, you know, it's only going to get worse.

But what you have to do is you must recognize that that is a false meta narrative. >> Correct. >> The truth is what the truth is. and we have to keep our own information sphere which you're a big part of and they hate that by the way you notice there's no billionaires funding us >> the the blowing up of the of the these boats I think is such an important point because it really brings it home if you listen to his information um or hexas uh these are drug dealers well how do we know that due process the evidence is all vaporized the evidence and then when you look at the number of people on these boats like why would I had an expert in smuggling tell me this and I just can't unsee it. Why would you have so many people on a drug smuggling boat?

It doesn't make any sense. >> It very well could be that these are migrants and that these are are poor people who are being trafficked and blown up by this president who wants to, you know, make a show of things. And when you when you're beyond the law, which you know, I even resist calling it lawfare because I think it it isn't lawike in any way, that it's a you know, it's it's a uh example of when you get rid of the law, you get rid of due process. What do you have? You have arbitrary killing at the behest of a a tyrant. And that is the first >> the first people he fired besides the two women admirals of the Coast Guard, the black chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, >> right? Mhm.

>> The next three people he fired were the top three judge advocate generals at the Pentagon, >> the top three lawyers whose job it was to run the judge advocate general's corps and get it in such and to have rulings about the legality of your behaviors. So you have essentially a lawless Pentagon who is now carrying out what u I can tell you his entire playbook on Venezuela because I I saw the movie with Harrison Ford, right? It's a clear and present danger. It's a Tom Clancy book in which they were extrajudicially shooting down aircraft, blowing up small boats, running commandos in these countries and killing wives and kids without any ruling whatsoever. And at least in the book, you could be impeached and shamed into cutting down those operations. No, Trump's like, I'm just going to do it.

So we again in this disinformation sphere that we're having to combat which has now infected CNN. MSNBC is about to be gutted. It's going to be whatever its name is MS whatever uh we're not you know >> it's no long it's it it will probably this is precisely what Vladimir Putin did the minute he got into office after the Kursk mass massacre where the submarine sank. He just turned all of the political talk show channels into variety shows.

>> Yeah. >> And I think that's what's going to happen. We must have our own nucleus to combat that. >> I mean, what's what's worrying um although I'm glad that we're doing what we're doing is that, you know, it's it's independent podcast, independent media, not controlled by some central organization that's worried about stockholders. Correct. Yet we're I mean I wish we were bigger, but our our size is, you know, not not as vast as the information university. >> But the status quo this the status quo is always better funded. The status quo is always better armed.

>> But I mentioned that we don't have any liberal billionaires funding podcasts or like you know no one funded uh you know what is Air America. >> That's right. >> You know they they took it down. But look at this. Um, we have a bill we had billionaire fund Ben Shapiro when he was like in his late seven he was his late teens and they gave him 10 million >> which he he still is I believe but yes >> yeah they gave him $10 million then Sheldon Adlesen gave him another $50 million I believe they gave Charlie Kirk tens of millions of dollars.

>> Yeah. some guy who's in his early 20s and you know you you and I were at Politicon you know when he was there and he would come in there he had bodyguards and you know vehicles they fund the information sphere but more importantly the rightwing creates its own cultural identity and has CPAC turning point we don't even have Netroo Roots Nation I hear it still runs >> correct >> but what Is it six guys in Austin going out for burritos?

>> And it was never establishment anyway. It was never establishment anyway. >> But it wasn't ever funded as anti-establishment. >> Of course. Of course. >> You know, which would have helped the Democratic party, >> but it may but it's nothing new. I mean, Charlie Kirk, rest in peace, was very well compensated for normalizing white supremacy to college students and white people in their 20s. Uh, Ben Ben is very well compensated for normalizing oligarchy and making it just seem like a meritocracy. But but I I got I got one last question for you, Mr. Nance. Um cuz I just watched this weird Pete Hegsth pageant in front of uh the general class who were flown from around the world, taken from their jobs and made to be physical props for a draft dodger like Donald Trump to come along and and have his little drunk uh rapist little Fox News weekend prompter monkey um essentially strut themselves and peacock around. Now, this is the same military,

the Pentagon, that I have hailed for decades as being the greatest unsung hero in the fight against racism and racial discrimination. Going back to Harry Truman, but the military has been one of the greatest heroes in affirmative action. They have filed un so many counterbriefs. The military has tried to educate us that it helps national defense by having a very diverse recruitment pool. The military has led the way since the end of don't ask don't tell on treating LGBTQ including the T ones as prized members of the armed forces and respected for their unique abilities. Malcolm, after seeing this pageant today and watching how this draft dodging clown is running roughshot over so many of the values that our military holds dear and h deploying them as props to majority black cities to practice warfare on Americans.

>> Mhm. >> You're well connected. You you know a lot of these men and women. >> Yeah. >> What does the officer class think of this man? And what's going to happen when some of them are called upon to perform illegal orders? >> Well, the illegal orders thing is is different. They're going to have to find a they're going to have to work their way through a boatload of officers. >> Okay. But what do they think? >> There's no there's no way. Uh but I I I will tell you what the thought bubbles were >> in that that room cuz it was not just the the officers, it was all the senior enlisted also, >> right? sergeant major of the Marine Corps, Army, every senior commander that came there, there was an enlisted man next to him. And these are the guys who are going to have to explain it to the lower chain of command um that you know, all of you black guys who have problems with with feliculitis, you shave and bleed and hurt or get out of the military.

>> Thank you. >> Right. All of you gays out. Now, let me tell you something. I I was in from the very secretive dark ro world of cryptologology, right? Arabic linguists, which means that we were we only had a hundred in the Marine Corps in the in the Navy. And one day I was asked to counsel a guy and kick him so that we can kick him out of the Navy. And I was a chief and I was like, "Who's this guy?" And they bring him over and I go, "Oh yeah, I know you." And and I look at his folder, right? And they go, "Hey, you got to kick this guy out. He's got a bad case of gay." And I look at his folder and this guy was a level five Arabic linguist. That is native >> native master's or above >> educated. And he wasn't a native. He was Lawrence of godamn Arabia. And I was like, a unicorn has just walked into my room and is pooping ice cream. This guy was I couldn't believe he existed.

>> And they were like, "Yeah, he's he's gay. You got to get rid of him." I was like, "He's a level five linguist." And he said, "So, what are you going to do?" I'm like, "You get to work. Get out of my office and go to work." I needed this guy. Then, you know what? They kicked him out anyway. We're about to invade Kuwait and I just lost the only guy who could translate, you know, Saddam Hussein's girlfriend phone calls or whatever. You know what happened to him? NSA hired him. They were like, "Oh, yeah. We know you're gay, so here's your top secret clearance fact, and now we're gonna pay you five times what you were being gay before." And he retired. I The military lost the finest linguist in the run-up to Desert Storm that we had on book because he was gay. I don't care.

And me, my attitude was, I don't care. Get to work. These guys are now all going to have to confront this. >> Right. >> Right. I felt sorry for the three or four black generals and men and women generals and admirals I saw in there because guess what Pete Hexth just you know authorized today this you can have m it was like he was going over his own life you can be a drunk you can have sexual multiple sexual harassment charges filed against you can be a racist although it's on the books that we can't be a racist and that now will no longer longer impact your promotability because you made mistakes.

This isn't Nimtts running a ship of ground when he was in Enen in 1917. >> Yeah. For other for other talk about >> for other talk about readiness and caring about, you know, active force. What they're doing is undercutting the competence, you know, by what? By bringing back it's going back before Truman. Truman, of course, in the executive order after the civil rights committee recommends it, including people like Satie Alexander, desegregates the military, opens up the possibility of people thriving from all walks of life and adding to the to the to the power of the American military and to the knowledge and and that's true too in the civil service too that that Truman also there's a related executive order. He desegregates after Wilson had segregated the federal government. What does that do? It opens up the power of the diversity of America to get the best people out there. And for all their talk of colorblindness, this is really a return to the pre-truman white supremacy to their their own people loyalty over

knowledge. >> It is. And Pete H I'll say this straight up. I've said it on Twitter and other forum. Pete Hagf is a white supremacist >> and he has decided the force will be white and men. >> Correct. Correct. He has decided he's those guys who would have in World War II told black fighter pilots not to, you know, not not to bother coming into the bars. He's the guy who would have spat on you uh in uniform or the military policeman who would beat black soldiers for going to a white British bar. That's right. You know, after doing bombing missions or, you know, loading up, you know, doing the Red Ball Express across Europe. Uh, this is just disgraceful.

DEI in the military used to mean teamwork. >> Yeah. >> Well, Pete Hexet, that means didn't earn it. And he's on record this week, just to build on your thing, Malcolm, he's on record this week as praising and celebrating and honoring the white supremacist coward cavalry members who slaughtered unarmed women and children at Wounded Knee. going literally 150 years out of his way to show his contempt for the non-white victims of white supremacist violence. And that is not a dog whistle, that is a train whistle.

>> So, you know, there's the best that we can hope here is that he will crash and burn on his own. But that thought bubble I didn't fill in yet, that thought bubble around all the generals was two thoughts. One, why the f do I have a drunk ass major talking to me? >> Thank you. The other one was, "Well, we came all this way. What's for lunch? >> They'll be around after these clowns are gone, right?" They'll be They'll be around. >> Yeah. >> Um, Professor, I want to thank you for getting Mr. Nance here to be on the show. I've never had a boring time with this man. And I learned so much, Malcolm, every time I speak to you. What is the best way for our listeners to follow you, sir, and keep up with your brilliance seven days a week? Well, the primary platform I'm on is a Substack.

So, you can reach me at malcolmance.substack.com, which is the blackman spy. And these black manspy is my videos on YouTube. You can look up my videos on YouTube. And, uh, special intelligence, uh, which is a very loaded phrase if you know anything about codereing. Special intelligence is my, um, is my, uh, Substack long format writing, but all the videos are on there, too. Also, you can find me on Twitter. I'm still up there doing battle with the morons, you know, the vet bros and all these.

>> Right on. Thank you for your service. Thank you for your service. >> Thanks so much, Malcolm. >> You know, that our, as I said, we're all kindred spirits and bringing into the conversation the role of foreign disinformation and domestic disinformation. It's so crucial in this uh war for democracy. And I also appreciate the idea that although the way we're going to fight this uh war for democracy won't be in the form of normal conversation with our opponents, it it still is not a time to give up, but a time to to circle the wagons and to defend the principles that really made this country great.

>> True. >> Thank you so much for joining us for a pleasure. >> All right, guys. Take care. >> Thanks, Peace. Thank you, Malcolm. >> I want to thank everybody for listening to the podcast and supporting us and making us What do we know, Cory? the top 10 on on Apple history political podcasts. My god, >> on government government, we're um ranked number seven, not only top 10, and that's thanks to our amazing listeners and uh the reviews keep coming in. It's more than 370, all five stars with amazing uh raves about this. And of course, guests like Malcolm Nance are covering the truth of the uh the the danger to democracy, the danger of the military being used domestically. All of that is really resonating. And yet, of course, the reviews all talk about hope.

And we heard even that from Malcolm Nance while while being honest about this threat. So, thanks so much, John, for doing this every week and and for joining this conversation. >> Thank you, professor. How can our listeners follow you to keep up with all your brilliance? Well, you can uh find us on YouTube. I just have started a brand new Substack, The Oath in the Office, where I'm posting the videos and there's an archive of them uh and uh putting up relevant information. Um and then on Blue Sky, uh Democracy Prof. Come find me there. And even on the Twitter, I'm still there, Brett SchneiderC.

>> And I just want to say you can hear me every night on SiriusXM Progress, five nights a week. Uh if you don't have that, I'm a free podcast, the John Fugles podcast, every day. And uh my book is called Separation of Church and Hate, a sane person's guide to taking back the Bible from fundamentalist, fascists, and flock fleecing frauds. And that is available wherever you buy books at your local independent bookstore or the non-evil website of your choice. And I'm doing a couple tour dates. I'm going to be in uh Chicago doing a book tour uh about religion and politics in a comedy club at Zanies on the 8th of October.

That's a Wednesday night at 7 p.m. Come on down Chicago and let's have a big party. >> Cory, thank you. Yeah, please. >> I've just got to add one thing, which is congratulations. Two weeks on the New York Times bestseller list. Um, you you heard about it here and I know our listeners have been buying the book uh separation of church and hate. What an amazing uh and important work and uh America is responding. >> Thank you so much. The Daily Show got us a few sales, but I think it's all coming from this. Corey, I owe it all to you. Thank you so so much. And thanks again to Wendy and Bea Wolf and everyone who helps us put the show together. And uh most of all, thanks to you patriots for listening and giving us a reason to want to be better and be smarter and be kinder.